Karen McDonald, Oakland County Michigan's prosecutor, has been on the front lines fighting child abuse for years. Prior to her current role, she's been an assistant prosecutor, family court judge, and worked in private practice.
In our conversation, Prosecutor McDonald gives us real world examples of the valuable partnership between her office and the County's Child Advocacy center, or CAC - Care House of Oakland County. We also discuss the value of therapy dogs, what it takes to prosecute disturbing crimes against kids, and why McDonald's own mother's story has inspired the work she's now doing.
The "It Shouldn't Hurt To Be a Child" Podcast is narrated by Karen Newman, and is made possible thanks to the generous support of Sheryl Hauk.
Resources:
CARE House of Oakland County Website: https://www.carehouse.org/
CARE House Phone Number: 248.332.7173
Find a Child Advocacy Center (CAC) Near You: https://nationalcac.org/
Prosecutor McDonald: Anybody who deals in this field will tell you that when you're prosecuting somebody who has some sort of violent crime that you're charging them with, if you look back in their history, you will see that they were many, many times victims of a crime or abuse and neglect. Not to excuse what they did, but I'd rather focus on how we stop that from happening, than just filling up our prisons and jails.
Karen: It shouldn't hurt to be a child. Welcome to the podcast name for that simple fact. I'm Karen Newman. In this episode, we introduce you to someone on the front lines of dealing with those responsible for child abuse and neglect. Karen McDonald is the prosecutor in Oakland county, Michigan.
That's an area with 1.2 million people, larger than seven US states. It's her job to lead a team of attorneys who charge suspected criminals and take their cases to court. McDonald started as an assistant prosecutor where she specialized in child sexual assault cases. Then, after time in private practice as a lawyer, she became a family court judge, before being elected that county's prosecutor in 2020.
Since taking office, one of her priorities has been making sure when victims of child abuse are being interviewed to tell their stories to law enforcement, there's someone from her office present. Those interviews take place at the county's child advocacy center, CARE House of Oakland county.
Prosecutor McDonald: I started my career as a prosecutor, prosecuting child sexual assault cases, which is why I'm such a huge proponent and supporter of CARE House.
I spent many, many hours there at that time. And we're trying to get back to that. We always had a prosecutor present during forensic interviews. It's complicated. There are people in this building who have been prosecuting murders for years, and will tell you, they'd rather prosecute that, than a first degree child sexual assault case where the only evidence you have is the testimony of a child.
You know, I was talking to one of our very seasoned lawyers and he said, you know, when you're prosecuting a murder, there is a body. There's physical evidence that a crime was committed. And so often there is not. And so you have to rely on a lot of circumstantial evidence, but the biggest hurdle I think, and why it takes a really special person, who's really talented, is being able to form a connection and bond with that child, so that they will trust you, and lead them through the criminal justice system, with the integrity that we need. And the objectivity that's very important.
Karen: To help in that process, CARE House has taken the canine advocacy program under its umbrella of services. That program helps kids feel more comfortable when they have to testify in court. The prosecutor's office has embraced it too. McDonald says prosecutors and child advocacy centers must work together.
Prosecutor McDonald: What we're trying to do is provide a atmosphere and a setting that will bring the least amount of trauma possible.
When a child knows that they have to testify or be prepared to testify. And the data shows that these animals who are especially trained, really reduce trauma. And look, I don't really need the data. I have a dog, I have a golden retriever. This is the first thing, um, person, I want to talk to you when I get in the door if I've had a hard day, you know? Dogs make you feel better. There is a lot of data on it, but I don't think you really need it. So that's just one way of looking at it from the victim's perspective, the child's perspective. What are we going to do to make this really, really scary thing less scary? If you have ever been to CARE House and you watch the experience of a child entering and how they are treated from the moment they step in the door, it just can't be duplicated anywhere else. It just can't.
I mean, I can bring out the dogs and , I can do a lot of things in this office, but I cannot provide what an advocacy center like CARE House can. Dedicated professionals who are very well-informed about best practices and also are educating themselves all the time, both how to not just interview kids. It's so much more than that.
I mean, it's definitely an investigative tool that I don't know if we could even prosecute child sexual assault cases without that. Because otherwise what you have... I think a lot of people don't understand this. If you didn't have a CARE House, what you have are all these different law enforcement agencies in the county, sitting down with kids, wherever they decide is appropriate.
I've seen it done in the back of a police car. I've seen the child's home with the potential abusers still in the house. You know, bringing the kid into like an interview room at the police station. And that is going to vary depending on how experienced that agency is in dealing with these kinds of cases.
We have some really good detectives, but we also have really small agencies that don't have that kind of depth to have somebody on call all the time who has a forensic interviewing background. So without CARE House, that's what it would be. It would be non uniform interviews taking place in not ideal situations where kids don't feel safe because there's no other choice.
But we do have CARE House. So all of those law enforcement agencies, what they do, and we tell them, they must is take this child to CARE House. We're arranged for the child to be interviewed at CARE House. And we do that because we know it's the best absolute thing for the child because their number one goal is not just to find out if a crime has been committed.
Their number one priority is to make sure this child is treated with the absolute most care that will reduce any kind of trauma. And that's the way it should be. That is the way it should be.
Karen: McDonald says prosecuting crimes against children is difficult, but she thinks the work is worth the mental toll. It can take.
Prosecutor McDonald: I find that the best way for me to cope and process and accept the really terrible things that can happen to people and to children is to hold those people accountable. You know, I'm a prosecutor at heart and it takes a certain amount of guts. And, when I walk in a courtroom and I'm going to prosecute somebody, who's done something terrible to a child I'm at battle and that's all there is to it.
There's a time to sit and try to work out conclusions and solutions to cases that you think might be appropriate to be diverted or for the accused to be maybe they need treatment. But when it comes to a violent crime, there's no wavering. When you step on the battlefield, you gotta win. I guess I have a history of always doing the hardest thing possible. A lot of people tell me that,
But you know, you can't let fear hold you back. You really can't. There's been a lot of cases that have come through since I started. Really terrible cases, violent crimes against kids. And there's always something in the file. Sometimes there's a terrible video.
Sometimes there's pictures. And I have so often people will come in here and they'll say, well, I don't think you should watch this. This is really hard. And I have a lot of people on my leadership team that actually just leave the room. They don't want to see something. They don't want to see something that awful, but I never leave the room.
And I always say, I'm going to look at it because that's my job. And I feel so strongly, that if a child or a victim of a crime had to experience that, then I owe them that respect. They're victims of crime. How can I say, I can't look at it. When I know that this child that you're fighting for had to experience it? You have to face it.
You have to face it. And it's not for everybody, but if you're going to be the prosecutor, you have to be able to face those things. We do really hard, difficult things every single day. And so do the people at CARE House. But I just can't even imagine saying that I don't want to acknowledge that exists. I don't want to have anything to do with it because that's just so troubling.
That's just not how I'm wired. We gotta face it and confront it so that we can fight to stop it.
Karen: In our conversation with Karen MacDonald. She told us something she doesn't talk about often. Her own mother was a victim of child abuse and neglect. She passed away recently at the age of 74, after suffering from an auto-immune disease most of her life. That's why the prosecutor keeps in the front of mind, the lifelong effects of abuse and how a child advocacy center can help.
Prosecutor McDonald: The reality is childhood trauma can shorten your life. You have a higher rate of heart disease and auto immune disease and many, many things. And I think the medical field has realized this.
I don't think enough emphasis is put on it in doctor's offices, really talking about trauma, particularly in communities where you might not suspect because there's this myth that it might not be happening. I think they actually do a better job of it in communities that are under privileged because they have people trained in that.
But this isn't just emotional trauma. It affects your health. It affects your mental health. It affects the way you show up in relationships as an adult, the way you parent as an adult. Again, one of the great things about CARE House and advocacy centers is it just doesn't stop now that the child has disclosed and we start prosecution. They have so many services made available to kids and families that we can't provide because that's not our role.
I think people don't really understand what goes on there. You can't really even walk into that place and have any interaction without being, um, it has a large imprint because you realize that it feels like a safe place. It is a safe place and we couldn't do our work without it. My responsibility is to prosecute cases and we do a really good job at that, but that's just the beginning of that struggle for the child. That child's going to have to learn how to show up in the world with that part of their past.
You know, we have assistant prosecutors in this building, who've been victims of crime, victims of sexual assault. And we talk a lot about... this isn't going to define you. It does not have to define you. You know, we had our own governor disclose on the house floor years ago that she was a victim of sexual assault and it didn't define her.
And that's not what people think about. And I talked to women, I know who have been victims. Um, men, even people in this office about telling your story does not mean that that becomes who you are. It's just one thing that happened.
Karen: McDonald's says it's important to remember that prosecutors can't do their best work
if they can't work with a community, the goal, she says, is to find the truth together.
Prosecutor McDonald: We have to, as prosecutors, know how to interact with victims, particularly child victims. But we aren't first responders and that's not our primary goal. Our primary goal is we have to be the person that prosecutes the case.
And so I think it's a tall order to expect a prosecutor to do both. And I don't think it's appropriate. You know, I'm a mother and I quite naturally have good relationships and interactions with children, but it's not my role to provide any sort of counseling or support. And even though we might want to do that, sometimes we have to stay in our lane because that's not what I've been trained to do.
I've been trained to be a prosecutor. You gotta have a good rapport with your child. You just do, particularly if you have a kid that just doesn't want to talk or disclose. We had an incident that I was told about with one of our handlers, with our dogs. And the child came in and, you know, we have the victim advocate and the dog there and the prosecutor, and there were preparing this child to testify and she just didn't want to say anything anymore. She just didn't want to say it. And so they said, do you think you could tell Lance, which was the dog? And so she lifted up his ear and she told Lance, and so she was speaking loud. I mean, they were all there. They heard exactly what you're saying, but she could tell the dog.
And I really love that story because. That is the best way to prepare a child. Preparing, is just saying the truth and being able to say it out loud in a way that people can hear you and get used to what that feels like. And, you know, we do other things too. We bring them to the courtroom when no one's there before, so they understand what it looks like. There's no surprises. But I just don't think we could really do our job if we didn't have a child advocacy center,
Karen: "It shouldn't hurt to be a child" made possible by the generous support of Sheryl Hauk. For more information on CARE House of Oakland county and its programs, visit CAREHouse.org To find a child advocacy center near you, visit NationalCac.org. I'm Karen Newman. Thanks for listening.